Co ja zrobilem? Czy to plagiat czy tylko podobienstwo

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Re: Co ja zrobilem? Czy to plagiat czy tylko podobienstwo

Postautor: morf » 21 lis 2020, 21:32

Hi inux3d :)
Warm welcome to you Guys and kudos for the design :)

No worries my version was not shared anywhere and will not be shared ever.
Please rethink the approach with selling the model itself. It's up to you of course but there's a number of people that would rather purchase the model and print it themselves.
Best
rafaljot, dziobu, Zepco, Adinfo, emartinelli
Done is better than perfect.
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Re: Co ja zrobilem? Czy to plagiat czy tylko podobienstwo

Postautor: inux3d » 22 lis 2020, 09:51

Dear morf and community,

Thank you for your kind words! The fact that you "copied" our design is indeed the biggest flattery. We really appreciate it! (truly)
It is only a matter of time until the Chinese will copy it :D - that would be the seal of approval that the design is really good :D

We are not worried. It is part of doing business, especially when 3D printing is involved. Your design (judging from your pictures) is similar in spirit but has certain aspects that are not the same. And as you also mentioned, it is possible for anyone with CAD skills to "copy" it.

The reason we do not share/sell the stl files is more related to the execution of the design. The material used is not cheap PLA and the technique of printing is very specific. Additionally, there are nuts and bolts involved that the end user would have to purchase to assemble the parts together. There are more than 10 bolts involved with specific tolerances, that many may not find easy to find/achieve.

In early alpha stage of the design, we shared the files with some 3d printing community members to see how they would print and make it.
The results were from funny to tragic. Bad prints, toolmarks visible, wrong nuts resulting in improper fitting etc.
Now imagine these prints being photographed and shared via social media! Would that make people want to buy it?

You are free to share your files with anyone - they are your files after all. Please do not use our brand and product names though as this would be an issue. Selling them, is another matter, that may complicate things :)

Having a 3D printer does not make us "mini factories" on its own. It is a combination of things that does. Product design and development take a lot of time and effort. Marketing it, is a big challenge too. It is too bad that Europe has moved all of that to China in the last 30 years, and now we are seeing the results of that!


In the spirit of that, how about we make a design challenge?! Anyone from this community that has design skills, can submit a design for a Raspberry Pi case. It has to be ORIGINAL. This design, would be then printed and sold on our web site and they would get paid for it.
If you like the idea, please reply "I LIKE IT" and then we can make the terms and conditions of this more specific for the copyright, payment and other legal matters.


Again, many thanks and looking forward to the response our proposal gets!

Best regards,

The INUX3D Design Team
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Re: Co ja zrobilem? Czy to plagiat czy tylko podobienstwo

Postautor: mcxmcx » 22 lis 2020, 11:41

inux3d pisze:Bycie kopiowanym to największe pochlebstwo! Dziękuję!

And yes, Slovaks do read this page ;) (FYI we are not all Slovaks here)
And yes, we have registered trademarks for our work.

We would reccomend that you spend your time in making original designs and not copy other people's.
But if you do copy it, please let us know! We will even post your work on our social media to show how succesful our design has been since other people want to copy it :)

We wish you all the best!

The INUX3D Design Team


Hi. Can you share your utility model registration details?
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Re: Co ja zrobilem? Czy to plagiat czy tylko podobienstwo

Postautor: inux3d » 22 lis 2020, 12:00

mcxmcx pisze:
inux3d pisze:Bycie kopiowanym to największe pochlebstwo! Dziękuję!

And yes, Slovaks do read this page ;) (FYI we are not all Slovaks here)
And yes, we have registered trademarks for our work.

We would reccomend that you spend your time in making original designs and not copy other people's.
But if you do copy it, please let us know! We will even post your work on our social media to show how succesful our design has been since other people want to copy it :)

We wish you all the best!

The INUX3D Design Team


Hi. Can you share your utility model registration details?


We are working on it, please give us some time. Thanks :)
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Re: Co ja zrobilem? Czy to plagiat czy tylko podobienstwo

Postautor: morf » 22 lis 2020, 12:14

Ahoj inux3d,

thanks for the reply!

inux3d pisze:The reason we do not share/sell the stl files is more related to the execution of the design. The material used is not cheap PLA and the technique of printing is very specific. Additionally, there are nuts and bolts involved that the end user would have to purchase to assemble the parts together. There are more than 10 bolts involved with specific tolerances, that many may not find easy to find/achieve.


I definitely do not feel entitled to indicate the direction of your sales department but the argumentation that You've presented (if it's the only one) it's just something I do not fully agree.

My design use only basic M screws and screws provided with SDD drive.It's not printed from "cheap PLA" but a prusament PETG.
Apart from that, just to be fair this particular stand will work just fine even printed from cheap PLA ;)
Honestly speaking the design is so simple (no overhangs, no bridges etc) that I don't see any possible problems that even entry levels users may possibly have.

I agree that anyone with poor quality printer or not calibrated printer could have problems with printing this design, but most probably those users will experience same problems with other prints anyway.
Moreover when You look at the reprap world I'd say majority of the parts in our machines (printers) are 3D printed.

There are products being sold by big market players that recently have started to sell their products in a "hybrid mode" e.g selling non-printable parts + STLs.
Examples are presented in a YT video from Prusa:

źródło: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F93SMGQpZZk

Some companies give user a choice to purchaise a physical product or to buy a model and self-print.
If many of Your test group users fail to print it might also indicate that models should be better optimized for 3d printing.

For me personally it was a matter of time.
My version emerged as a result of my impatience I had a RPi and SSD in my hands one day and truly I didn't want to wait a week or more for the shipping.
Done is better than perfect.
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Re: Co ja zrobilem? Czy to plagiat czy tylko podobienstwo

Postautor: inux3d » 22 lis 2020, 13:09

morf pisze:Ahoj inux3d,

thanks for the reply!

inux3d pisze:The reason we do not share/sell the stl files is more related to the execution of the design. The material used is not cheap PLA and the technique of printing is very specific. Additionally, there are nuts and bolts involved that the end user would have to purchase to assemble the parts together. There are more than 10 bolts involved with specific tolerances, that many may not find easy to find/achieve.


I definitely do not feel entitled to indicate the direction of your sales department but the argumentation that You've presented (if it's the only one) it's just something I do not fully agree.

My design use only basic M screws and screws provided with SDD drive.It's not printed from "cheap PLA" but a prusament PETG.
Apart from that, just to be fair this particular stand will work just fine even printed from cheap PLA ;)
Honestly speaking the design is so simple (no overhangs, no bridges etc) that I don't see any possible problems that even entry levels users may possibly have.

I agree that anyone with poor quality printer or not calibrated printer could have problems with printing this design, but most probably those users will experience same problems with other prints anyway.
Moreover when You look at the reprap world I'd say majority of the parts in our machines (printers) are 3D printed.

There are products being sold by big market players that recently have started to sell their products in a "hybrid mode" e.g selling non-printable parts + STLs.
Examples are presented in a YT video from Prusa:

źródło: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F93SMGQpZZk

Some companies give user a choice to purchaise a physical product or to buy a model and self-print.
If many of Your test group users fail to print it might also indicate that models should be better optimized for 3d printing.

For me personally it was a matter of time.
My version emerged as a result of my impatience I had a RPi and SSD in my hands one day and truly I didn't want to wait a week or more for the shipping.


Ahoj morf,

Valid points all around! We only have 2 questions for you:
1. How can you judge the quality of our product, if you dont have it in your hands? (we will ship one to you for free though- email us your address)
Your version looks alot like ours but its not the same ( good job btw - not bad at all)

2. What if, you sold stl files and one user started selling your product (that they printed). Would you spend your time going after them? That has costs that woudl impact your product price. Not ideal, right? How can you protect your IP and your investment?
Prusa has open sourced their product, but how likely will it be for a user to source all the parts from a hundred vendors (the electronics and metal parts) rather than just buying from Prusa at the end of the day?

We do have an internal argument about the benefits (and downfalls) of selling the stl files of our designs. Sure, many users would just download and print for themselves - no mistake.
But there would be many (who own a 3D printer and have free time) who would "consider" selling them and make a profit from our R&D and design, since they would only have to print and sell.

Ultimately, how much would you pay for an STL version? (not a trick question) Would you pay 5EUR? (for example)

We really appreciate all feedback! It is how the products and market are shaped and there are no right or wrong answers here!

Thanks,

Lev
CTO@INUX3D
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Re: Co ja zrobilem? Czy to plagiat czy tylko podobienstwo

Postautor: morf » 22 lis 2020, 19:25

Well this thread is getting more & more interesting :)
I think those questions should be not only be directed to me but rather to wide community of reprapy.pl board ;)

But let me share my thoughts:

1) Quality product / design
inux3d pisze:1. How can you judge the quality of our product, if you dont have it in your hands? (we will ship one to you for free though- email us your address)
Your version looks a lot like ours but its not the same ( good job btw - not bad at all)


I've never judged the quality of your product, as i have never seen it in my hands. Judging from pictures I can only assume that final quality of the parts are similar to top notch 3d printed parts. That's good!
I've printed mine on Prusa mk3s with 0.2 layer height, and it tuned out just fine.
Screenshot_20201122_192804.png

It might have been even better if I use a quality profile rather than a "speedy" one and add monotonic infill and ironing.
My particular print with Rpi is hidden in the closet anyway.

There are some negative comments on Your website anyway, but I guess it's more about user negative attitude, isn't it? :crazy:
Screenshot_20201122_185413.png


What I can judge is the design and the idea behind that I fancy much! :good:
By writing that it is "simple & plain" I meant that it is an advantage.

Browsing the catalog on Your web-page I can clearly see that some of the parts are shared between different designs that makes it kinda "modular" (buzzword ;) )


2) Distribution problems and illegal sharing and ideas to overcome the problem

inux3d pisze:2. What if, you sold stl files and one user started selling your product (that they printed). Would you spend your time going after them? That has costs that woudl impact your product price. Not ideal, right? How can you protect your IP and your investment?
Prusa has open sourced their product, but how likely will it be for a user to source all the parts from a hundred vendors (the electronics and metal parts) rather than just buying from Prusa at the end of the day?
(...)
But there would be many (who own a 3D printer and have free time) who would "consider" selling them and make a profit from our R&D and design, since they would only have to print and sell.


Well I think that's the main problem here but it's actually the same case with 3d STLs as well as with other "virtual" products like mp3 songs or stock photos, ebooks or application license etc.
There is and unfortunately there will always be a fraction of people that will try to share it illegally or try to sell it.
But taking into consideration a literature and ebooks, even though there is a number of ebooks available on the internet that are shared illegaly, but still people keep buying them from regular ebook stores (at least it's what I do).
There are of course law mechanisms that could probably help You to enforce to limit those.

I believe that still 3d community people would rather purchaise a verified, correct and legit STL file for a couple of EUR than spend some time to find it on someones dropbox as a shared file. There's a bunch of sites that already sell 3D designs.

I do have some ideas to share with You. And I'm curious whether You'll like it or not.

Idea #1
To introduce a pilot sale sale of one of an STL of one Your existing design or a new design.
VERSION A) Distribute it as separate item in the store, so You'll have both printed and STL version and check the sales numbers.
VERSION B) User can buy the physical case but if one pays + 20% will receive a STL file as well.

Idea #2
Silly anti-thief solution to automatically emboss username or a pseudo serial number on STL file that is delivered to end user.
It will not stop anyone but might impact on the possible user that will at least think twice before sharing it online.

Idea #3
If you're worried about the quality that end user will end up with -> try to provide some simple guide, something like that:
Print settings https://github.com/gregsaun/bear_extrud ... ettings.md (Bear upgrade)
or a extrusion calbration https://guides.bear-lab.com/Guide/Extru ... diameter/8 (Bear upgrade)

Maybe a simple sample calibration check part that user can print and check if e.g can fit m3 nut into hole, could be a good think to indicate and communicate prior to to future purchaise.


inux3d pisze:Ultimately, how much would you pay for an STL version? (not a trick question) Would you pay 5EUR? (for example)


I think the only right answer is of course that "it depends". It depends on several factors and should somehow reflect Your time and efforts spent on design. But The amount You've proposed (compared to 7.5EUR for printed version) seems fine for me!

I know my most is most probably TL, but I've tried to be fair and give You some hints.
Done is better than perfect.
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Re: Co ja zrobilem? Czy to plagiat czy tylko podobienstwo

Postautor: inux3d » 22 lis 2020, 21:37

Those questions are directed to all who care to answer :) You = "Vy" not "Ty" :)

It is an interesting topic and I do value all input. Some is realistic, some idealistic. Only trying can tell the outcome.
Short answers to your proposals:

Idea #1
To introduce a pilot sale sale of one of an STL of one Your existing design or a new design.
VERSION A) Distribute it as separate item in the store, so You'll have both printed and STL version and check the sales numbers.
VERSION B) User can buy the physical case but if one pays + 20% will receive a STL file as well.


Realistic. Maybe we will try it and see if it has any future as a product line.

Idea #2
Silly anti-thief solution to automatically emboss username or a pseudo serial number on STL file that is delivered to end user.
It will not stop anyone but might impact on the possible user that will at least think twice before sharing it online.


Silly :D (but could avert some indeed)

Idea #3
If you're worried about the quality that end user will end up with -> try to provide some simple guide, something like that:
Print settings https://github.com/gregsaun/bear_extrud ... ettings.md (Bear upgrade)
or a extrusion calbration https://guides.bear-lab.com/Guide/Extru ... diameter/8 (Bear upgrade)


Unrealistic. We are not a 3D printing company and we are not targeting 3D Printing enthusiasts. We cannot be troubleshooting printing issues on random printer setups and configurations with infinite variations of slicing, materials and user setups.

Our goal is to provide 3D printed (and not only) products around RPi and DIN Rail, to end users who (based on our surveys) do not own a 3D printer.
I think that this is where the confusion entered the conversation.
Your approach it from a 3d printing point of view whereas we see the 3d printing process as a tool to provide end products. Admitedly, some do own a printer and would like to print it on their own but we can't base our marketing and sales on this small percentage.

Comment about the negative review on our site: You can never satisfy 100% of users. As long as the majority are happy, we are happy :)

I really appreciate your input and ideas. User feedback is how products are shaped! As a token of appreciation, I would like to send you a TerraPi for free, and get even more feedback since you did take the time to design your own. Send us your address please!

I do hope that I make my point clear, that we are not attacking anyone here. I felt that I had to step in to the thread as the topic was directly related to one of our products, and defend the "honor" of Slovakia, who does read this forum ;)

We are all entitled to our opinions and the moral of the story for me is that good things come out of constructive critisism.
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Re: Co ja zrobilem? Czy to plagiat czy tylko podobienstwo

Postautor: JGFTW » 22 lis 2020, 23:25

@McKee


Nie sądzę żeby Słowacy przeglądali to forum [...]


LOL


źródło: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bSEfx6D8mA
Wszędzie Cię dorwą. Nie ukryjesz się! ;)

@inux3d

It is great that you guys joined ;)

Now the discussion brings all interested parties and It is getting interesting.


You are free to share your files with anyone - they are your files after all. [...] Selling them, is another matter, that may complicate things


I think this is very interesting piece when considering ownership of design and idea itself.

Could you elaborate on why selling those files could complicate things?
Are the files really his, if he potentially could not decide whether to sell them? (basically choose to do whatever he wanted)

Did you registered it under industrial design in EU or not as dziobu speculated?

I especially wonder about it being purely functional piece, which have certain way of looking due to mounting points of connecting elements and practical application.
Other thing, which is debatable is the sheer amount and substantiality of morf's design portion used in relation to your work as a whole, so could you tell how much would you believe it is (approximately) from your perspective?

To put it simply; if you would like to achieve the same result of aligning those specific elements vertical could you made the mount any other way?
And is in your opinion just an imitation or plagiarism?


I especially wanted to exclude this piece from your post:
Please do not use our brand and product names though as this would be an issue.


because it is simply illegal under EU trademark protection laws, as well as internal laws (definetly ours and propably yours too), which was mentioned in previous post and in this direction there is nothing enlightening more to add on the subject.




The reason we do not share/sell the stl files is more related to the execution of the design. The material used is not cheap PLA and the technique of printing is very specific. Additionally, there are nuts and bolts involved that the end user would have to purchase to assemble the parts together. There are more than 10 bolts involved with specific tolerances, that many may not find easy to find/achieve.

In early alpha stage of the design, we shared the files with some 3d printing community members to see how they would print and make it.
The results were from funny to tragic. Bad prints, toolmarks visible, wrong nuts resulting in improper fitting etc.
Now imagine these prints being photographed and shared via social media! Would that make people want to buy it?


screenshot.png


Judging from pictures i do not see how your design would be hard to print. Everything lay flat - judging from texture on them, looks like you made in on Prusa MK3s (PEI powder-coated) - and all holes are horizontal (so at worst it takes two tries to get dimensions right - changing only horizontal expansion parameter in slicer), i would also guess it is PETG or maybe ABS/ASA, so propably not inherently hard to print material like PA12+CF or PC.

Maybe you have chosen the wrong testers and/or control group.



Prusa has open sourced their product, but how likely will it be for a user to source all the parts from a hundred vendors (the electronics and metal parts) rather than just buying from Prusa at the end of the day?


Well, I have done precisely that ;) Due to exact same reason as morf - I am impatient guy and when I bought my Original Prusa kit and was so satisfied with it that wanted to buy another, but lead time was more than a month at that time (maybe even 8 weeks if i recall), so I tracked every part and sourced them myself in few weeks with exact parts. It's worth mentioning that cost was comparable to original kit, but the time was IMHO (and still is) more valuable, so why not taking the same principle to this part - why should I wait 2-5 days for something that I could get in a few hours? If it was available, that is ;)

I am not talking about making design open-source, but selling files could
Other thing is that selling model itself could be also marketing strategy for some companies - worked for edelkrone, about which I have never even heard before they released product to print.

It should all boil down to risk assesment, which is potentially more beneficial? Risking someone selling your design is big and valid concern, but how it compares to lost revenue for not exploring this option and is it protecting from someone who (like morf) can open CAD and make something that does the same or very similar thing?

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4649302
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4105150
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3605637


If you would sell a whole kit (RPI + adapter + SSD) and as a part of it you could buy models to print for a few euros more in addition to choosing the printed part, then it would made much more sense for me (from a customer perspective), as it would save me the hassle of designing it myself, which i would rather do than buy the already printed one, because that is why i have 3d printers - to print stuff.


Concerning the price itself (following an example of 7 EUR per part and 5 EUR for .stl) what need to go into considerations, that you technically do an outsourcing of manufacturing to end client, so price should reflect that. Downside is a lower income, but upside is no need to think about logistics, machine (upkeep, material, operating and future maintenance) - you could only desing the part, prototype it (that is what 3d printing is best at), create manual/assembly instruction and sell it many times (possible infinite) over long time with no stock needed, especially important if its more than low batch of parts to manufacture.


Don't take my advice as I wont tell you how to run your company ofc, but rather raising something to think about.

And also arguments that i've made lean towards selling the design as I wanted to counter your current stance, but my opinion is that maybe you should not do it based on the products portfolio that you have.
Especially, when you focus intensively on selling the printed parts as seperate products i think in that case sharing the .stl would be defeating or at least water down a little the purpose of it.
I base this on the notion that 3d printing market is either a niche, so it is not worth it to share the design or it is so popular that risk of sharing copies of your design is too great - simultaneously. ;)

If you could not share the .stl, but achieve the same result, then i guess would cover concerns in your case - which brings me to idea #4

maybe you could sell mount by generating machine-specific .gcode on your website (like slicer engine in the octoprint). Profiles for material and 3d printer should already be there or you could tweak it.

It is just an idea, which have drawbacks, especially in implementation and its a hassle, but i'm just putting it out there.


FYI:
I have stumbled upon interesting fact; That under EU law unregistered community design looses its protection after 3 years of being " available to the public in such a way that the interested circles operating within the European Union (EU) can reasonably be aware of the design."
https://euipo.europa.eu/ohimportal/en/d ... pean-union
https://euipo.europa.eu/ohimportal/en/u ... ity-design

Even if you had all the rights to the design, when you wont pay EU its cut for registration anyone can copy it (if not infringing other IP rights)
so I guess in around 14months (based on your domain registration date) the discussion about legality wound not matter that much ;)
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Re: Co ja zrobilem? Czy to plagiat czy tylko podobienstwo

Postautor: inux3d » 23 lis 2020, 09:52

Guys,

Lets not lose focus. I see all your points. They are valid.
Please keep in mind a few facts:
a. We are not making products for the 3d printing community (so any effort in providing stl files is secondary)
b. we do know that any design can be copied ( I dont think the chinese read this forum :D :D :D :D)
c. alpha testing must include full spectrum of users (so that we can see what to expect in results that are not ideal)
d. there are people with CAD skills, much better than ours ;)
e. no real copyright protection for small companies (try going after all that may copy you - not gonna happen)
f. patents can not cover everything - and they can be very costly to get. This design can not be effectively patented.


I personally am more interested in answering this question:
If you hadn't seen it, would you have been able to (imagine it and) make it yourself?


Would morf have come up with his "copy" if he hadn't seen ours? I say "copy" because he was able to copy the images from our site and project them as canvas in F360 to replicate it. So the SSD mounting clips are identical, but the base is not.

The original TerraPi design(s) will always be ours. We designed it and produced it first. That is what matters. Any derivatives that may come, will always remind people of the TerraPi and will always be compared to it. Will someone make a better one? Possibly yes! So it would be an improved version of the TerraPi design :) No copyright laws (and their expirations), protection, plagiarism or plain copy can take that away from us.
This thread on this forum is living proof of that :)

Do you consider the people who make 3d models of fan art, artists? They simply reproduce the original desing :) So if you make an stl of baby yoda, do you create art? I see Lucas Films being the creator (and they always will be) and the person who makes a "copy" into an stl, a person who piggybacks on their original idea :)

At some point (when our investment in this product is returned) we will release the files as Open Source, so those who own a 3d printer can print them. Some will try to sell them, and if they do, they will be promoting our brand (even unwillingly) since the design will always be ours.
I believe that answers the question (partially) if morf can share his files. He may even sell them, still the principal applies.

So far, we are registering trademarks only. Designs will come later.
We would love to not have to bother with production, logistics, shipping and the works... Until most households and companies will own (and operate) a 3d printer, it seems we will have to :)

Conclusion:
Can someone copy our design? Yes :)
Should they? And if they do, should they profit from it? This is more of a moral question, I leave the answer to each and every one of us!
Will they? Yes, it has happened, and will happen again :)
Are we upset? No, we are flattered!

I want to thank morf for opening this topic. It gives everyone an insight of how things work when 3d printing, with its potential, is involved.
morf

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